Request for Perspective on Daughter's "Plans"

[cincymarsdad]

This site has been very useful in the past so I'm bringing a somewhat complex scenario here for your thoughts. Bear with me while I lay it out.

I have twin daughters, 17, one of whom, Sarah, has been military oriented for several years now. No doubt she was influenced by her brother. She is able to "finish" high school early, as in a couple months. Fine.

Meanwhile, she has applied for both the ROTC scholarship and to the service academies, and other than a glitch on the Naval Academy's web site, appears to have her nominations and applications well underway. Her SAT scores are above the averages, she is very active in JNROTC, is a good athlete etc. A Marine captain who interviewed her for the ROTC s-ship told her JNROTC master sgt "If she doesn't get it, something is wrong." So far, terrific and I'm proud of her.

To make things complicated, my rather stubborn Sarah - who does talk to me and often listens to me since I don't try to make her do exactly what I say - wants to go to boot camp as in PIRTD. She says her enlisted contract would be voided were any of the above to come through. I'm going to let her go to MEPS and take the ASVAB etc. to see if all that waiting opens her eyes a bit. The only semi-logical reason she has voiced is that her PFT stats are not maxed, mostly the run, and she wants to use boot to get into shape. I have not quite been able to get through to her that boot is a bit more than just an exercise program. She has also raised the point about learning to be enlisted might make her a better officer, and I know from reading here that mustangs AND ROTC guys can make good officers or bad, it depends on other things. Anyway, Army and Marine recruiters are salivating though so far I have chosen to avoid talking with them.

I am encouraging her to take some college courses, particularly French to get that FL thing out of the way and stay in scholastic mode. She has been thinking about this, but I need some pithy comments to enlighten her as to her thinking. I figure the brain trust here can offer something, understanding that it needs to be eye opening to a 17-year old. Sarah is among other things a goalie in soccer, so the notion of crawling through the mud etc. actually attracts her, so I can't talk to her about "Boot camp is really tough.", as that makes it more appealing. [Sounds like my son, who thought the Crucible was a blast. He did opine that actual combat operations were not so much fun.]

I was thinking of offering to pay for a personal trainer on her running since she is so paranoid about that, I think she ran in 25-26 minutes. I've seen her do three solid dead hang pullups and she maxes the hang time and does crunches fine.

My ex and Sarah are barely on talking terms. The ex knows nothing about this, and would freak at the thought. Sarah will be 18 in July. The ex is trying to run both daughter's lives, without much success. Anyway, unless I sign, Sarah can't do any of this until July anyway, by which time hopefully appointments or s-ships will have come through.

The other moose on the table of course is my son. Sarah had all this going before Chris died in Iraq, but I know she knew how proud I was of him (and am) and I worry that deep down this military stuff may be an subconsious attempt to gain my approval (which she has anyway) by emulating him. I don't see any way to get at this factor though since I tear up just thinking about him. I do want to make it clear to Sarah that she should live her life as she desires and not measure herself somehow against Chris, an entirely different person. I do wonder if Sarah is trying to be another "son" to me subconsciously, but I can't psycobabble that beyond just that.

Thanks for reading all this and any thoughts/advice in advance. This sounds like more of a soap opera than the usual posts here but it actually seems logical to bring this here to me. You teenagers feel free to comment as well please. My next source of wisdom will be "Ask Anne" (just kidding). I know I can't lay out every factor in detail, so any thoughts are appreciated.

[USMCRET6391]

My ex and Sarah are barely on talking terms. The ex knows nothing about this, and would freak at the thought. Sarah will be 18 in July. The ex is trying to run both daughter's lives, without much success. Anyway, unless I sign, Sarah can't do any of this until July anyway, by which time hopefully appointments or s-ships will have come through.

Once she turns 18 it is pretty much out of your and your ex's hands, she can pretty much do what she wants. From what I have read what you are doing and saying is exactly the right thing to do. Have her look at all her options, continue the application process and see what happens. As for the boot camp thing, she is not in the minority there, a lot of recruits go into Basic Training with the idea that it is going to "get them in shape", will "give them discipline" and etc. From the sound of it I think she will do fine whatever she choses or what opportunities present themselves.

[Vulture6]

John – going to boot camp to “get into shape” is a horrible reason to enlist, and counting on your enlistment contract to be voided when and if something else comes through, is a hell of a gamble to take. If her goal is to be an officer, then keep her focused on that goal and try to help her see going to boot camp (only to have her enlisted contract voided by the receipt of a scholarship or academy appointment) as a distraction to that goal.

The best reason for enlisting and going to boot camp is to serve your country and to be a part of something bigger than yourself... some of the same valid reasons for going to one of the service academies, ROTC, or OCS… with the exception of a desire to take on rapidly increasing levels of responsibility. Sarah obviously already believes in these things, since she is pursuing either an appointment to the Naval Academy or an NROTC scholarship. She also has identified her desire, and potential, to be a leader. Going to boot camp is not necessarily going to make her a better leader… and plebe summer will be a fine substitute for boot camp as far as getting in shape and getting the “gut check” that she may be seeking.

I’ll give this some thought over the rest of the week and try to add some more then. Maybe have her look at some of the stuff at the top of this forum on what to expect at OCS and what it means to be a good officer, or the thread below on The Making of a Marine Officer, which gives a pretty good picture of OCS is like.

[Covertness]

Sounds like a smart dedicated young lady. Hard as it might be, it might be a good idea to talk all of this out through her. Psychobabble and all.
I am not a father sir, to try to put myself in your shoes would be an exercise in futility. However, I think she needs to hear all of this. The experience might be good for both of you.

[Grimmy]

There's alwase the potential risk that if she signs an enlisted contract that it will void the others, rather than the way she is reporting it. The one thing that all the branches have in common is really really really big beauracracy when it comes to what's been signed and what was promised.

There is also this issue which she might need to be made aware of. IF she's got what it takes to make a good officer then the last thing she needs is someone else telling her when to work out and how hard.

Officers lead. No one wakes em up in the morning and yells "PT formation, 10 minutes, MOVE!" She'll have to be her own motivator throughout her career, if she's an officer.

IF she needs someone else to push her to reach the goals she sets for herself (in PT or anything else) maybe she's not officer material after all.

[cincymarsdad]

I agree. She had an Army recruiter come over on Saturday with a lot of paperwork etc. and is rather annoyed at me for not signing her up. The recruiter was not very impressive (to me), which was not particularly relevant. He kept saying he could get her E-4 right out of boot camp. I guess E-4 is a bit easier to make in the Army. I certainly felt as if she was trying the bum's rush on me, something she should know better than that.

I asked her to explain to me why she wants to be enlisted reserve going to college and she said she already had told me. I said I was unconvinced, so she phased out. I feel like she ruined the recruiter's off day, but I had no idea what was afoot. She had not told the sgt she was applying to WP/USNA etc.

I'm trying to figure out how to keep her from turning this situation into a big negative mentally for her, but she is not listening to me at the moment. At times, she has shown the propensity to cut off her nose to spite her face, and could turn away from any other solid options she has developed. She tells me for example she has a full ROTC scholarship ready at Xavier University here in Cincinnati.

Teenagers can be tough to "manage" ...

As to her being officer material - or not - she's 17 and is more self-motivated than most 17-year olds out there in my experience. No doubt she is not "officer material" at the moment. She's acting more like she's 4 at the moment. They do that at times.

Certainly, my son was extremely stubborn and strong-willed at times, and not always very sensible. I recall trying to get him to consider something other than infantry. I recall trying to get him to consider applying to a service academy. I figured "Well, he can go be infantry, he's a reservist etc.". But I try and stay away from second-guessing when I can because it's what he clealry wanted to do and he would have been very frustrated to have done something else.

Teenagers THINK they know what they want (sometimes anyway) and if you force them in another direction (because it really is best), you run the severe risk of turning them off and they underachieve or quit on you.

Well, we'll see. If she has her service academy application fully in order (it's complex), we'll see if she gets in, but if SHE is not 100% committed to it, she will not do well. I can't force her to take it if she doesn't want it.

[Vulture6]

Another option to consider - not saying if it will work with her or not - there's no hurry to sign a reserve enlistment contract, and to do so now, may end up taking a slot away from someone else who wants to go and doesn't have the options that she currently has.

Let her continue to explore her options, and make no commitments until she hears from and selects a school. Then, once she selects a school (Academy, ROTC, or not), then she should focus on that goal and preparing herself for it. Let her immerse herself in researching options -- to include what will be available 4 years from now when she pins on her bars. Maybe you could even procure a set of gold bars for her now - with the understanding that you want to pin them on her yourself in four years. (I'll send you a set of scratched up and well well worn ones if you want!) This way, they could be a constant reminder to "keep her eyes on the target and not get distracted.

[Bronco1986]

well, she does need to work on that run, whether she goes ROTC or Academy, 25-26 will not due. I'm in AROTC and if she goes into her first year of AROTC on scholarship(which it sounds like she could) she will need to prepare for and improve that time. she needs to get it down to 18:54 for a passing score, if she does not pass her first recorded APFT she will get her scholarship taken away. bad news. however, she has a FULL YEAR to get that time down. the way I see it, there is no need to rush into bootcamp, she just needs to get motivated and get out and run run run run run. if she does not get the scholarship then i would consider enlisting in the reserves. The Simultaneous membership program is a good way to go. she can go to boot this summer, then go to school and rotc, then to AIT next summer. remember this is from an Army perspective.

[Vulture6]

she needs to get it down to 18:54 for a passing score

I think that there is a miscommunication here - - I think the 25-26 minute time is for the 3 mile run (Marine Corps PFT). Is the 18:54 AROTC passing score for a 3 mile run?

[cincymarsdad]

Originally Posted by Vulture6

I think that there is a miscommunication here - - I think the 25-26 minute time is for the 3 mile run (Marine Corps PFT). Is the 18:54 AROTC passing score for a 3 mile run?

Yeah, her 25-26 mins is for 3 miles. She was frustrated that she was running and not getting her times down further. Those times are "OK' just not maxed and I reckon she wants a 300 PFT ... Chris had a 245.

I had two Army sergeants here this evening. I'm holding off on any commitment. They were telling me "This is not really a commitment.", which I understand, but I don't sign things without it being 'my' commitment. She scored 95 on the ASVAB so the recruiters are "interested". Same score my son had.

Sarah did talk with me more this evening. I was able to broach the topic that I wanted her to do what she wanted to do and not be affected by my son. The fact that she is now interested in the Army is perhaps a positive in that sense. I asked her to try and be a little considerate of my having to deal with Chris' death - it has been two months as of today. That doesn't get any easier ...

She has interviewed with an Army colonel who I runs the ROTC program at Xavier U. here in Cincinnati and has offered her full s-ship. She tells me this is her first option now. What she wants is to do boot camp and do a split on AIT and go into the MPs nondeployable with an ROTC college gig at Xavier as a reservist. Then she'd like to get into CID in the Army as an officer. The recruiting sgts told me that if she has AIT-MP, she would be selected for CID as an officer. I am somewhat suspect of that, but it could be true. I am not as familiar with Army programs of course. I do understand that officers go where they are told to go. And I am led to believe that female Army officers can lead infantry platoons, but I don't know that for sure.

She can't start boot anyway until June and I don't feel the rush to do anything. Of course, all this is "this week". Her mom is still pushing her aggressively to take a West Point appt if offered, which is exactly the wrong thing to be telling her. Sarah says the West Point appts come up in January. She tells me she has all the paperwork in on her application and everything needed for a Congressional nomination. I told her that she shouldn't go to WP UNLESS she it 100% dedicated to that option as it is tough. Often, telling her something is tough, maybe TOO tough, gets her interested, rather than telling her "That's what I would do.".

I guess we shall see. She could turn around on the whole thing and go to some all-girl's college and major in French Literature or something equally useful.

Thanks for your perspective. All this is very tough for me and I don't always think straight. At the same time, I want her to reach for her dreams.